Behind the Spectacular Fight Scenes of 'Predator: Killer of Killers' with Director Dan Trachtenberg
A transcript of David's interview with director Dan Trachtenberg.
It’s no secret that I’m a big fan of Predator: Killer of Killers, Dan Trachtenberg’s new animated film set in the Predator universe (streaming on Hulu now). The fight scenes were exhilarating and technically dazzling, and the fact that the film was able to seamlessly integrate the Predator into multiple historical time periods was an impressive storytelling accomplishment. In my estimation, between Killer of Killers and his last movie Prey (which features a Predator going head to head with a Comanche woman in 1719), Trachtenberg has breathed new and exciting life into the franchise, and I can’t wait to see what he does with Predator: Badlands when it releases this November.
I was fortunate to have the chance with Trachtenberg last week about how Killer of Killers came together. We discussed why the filmmakers chose the specific time periods depicted in the movie, the challenges of integrating the Predator into human history, the difference between anthologies like The Twilight Zone vs. Pulp Fiction, and why Christopher Guest’s Best In Show was such an inspiration.
You can listen to the interview here (ad-free here) or watch our conversation on YouTube above. The below transcript has been edited for brevity and clarity. You should assume that our conversation contains plot details for the film.
David Chen: In Predator: Killer of Killers, the Predator visits Scandinavia in 841 A.D., Japan in 1609, and the Atlantic Ocean with the U.S. Navy in 1942. What was it that made you want to tackle these specific time periods?
Dan Trachtenberg: I really was wanting to do something unexpected, stories that would allow us to tell emotional tales that had conflict even without the Predator, but also engage with the aspect of the Predator franchise — that this is a creature that comes to study who is Alpha and analyzing who is Alpha. The first one that came to mind was Feudal Japan [which] is just a cool era. The pop culture idea of Ninja vs. Samurai that all of us fantasize about over the years, and the Predator analyzing that.
There’s always a thing of who would win in a fight, you always kind of would be like, “Karate could be Kenpo and judo would beat...” And whatever you choose, you would always argue with friends. When you watch movies and you see Bruce Lee with Jeet Kune Do would beat this or that. So there's something in Predator doing that. And then of course, getting to a place where it's about brothers trying to prove them and a father that's pitting them against each other. I just love stories where characters break cycles.
The Viking era was another one of warriors to be reckoned with and the Predator needing to contend with them, them needing to contend with the Predator, and honing in on a story about a mom and a son. The shield as both a protective instrument and also an offensive instrument with a character that is trying to protect by attacking and thinking that will solve her problems. All that stuff is just in the soup to create the stories.
Then World War II was thinking a lot about Predator versus soldiers from a different time period because of the original Predator…But I couldn't crack like, "What is that really?" And then came the [realization]: Oh, my gosh, wait a second. Who were the great soldiers of those [wars]? Fighter pilots. And what if the Predator never left the ship? What if what we always see on the ground happens in the air? And we have the incredible wish fulfillment and insanity of those planes in a dogfight with a Predator spaceship. That's kind of how we ended up where we did.
Prior to Prey, there had been four movies plus two Aliens versus Predator films. In Star Wars, there are entire departments dedicated to making sure the universe consistency is maintained. I'm curious, as you're crafting these stories and also Predator: Badlands, how much does Predator lore factor into your decision-making, or do you feel like you and your filmmaking team have been entrusted with creating the Predator lore?
When I signed on to Prey and then they gave the thumbs up, they gave the green light, I was like, "All right, give me the bible! I'm ready to see it." And there was none. There was no bible, there was no person, there was no...
It's just some guy named Frank who works there and loved the movies.
And not even that. Yeah, we'd be very excited to meet Frank at the time. But eventually I did meet Alec Gillis, who has been a part of the Predator franchise since the beginning having worked under Stan Winston. And then eventually him and Tom Woodruff formed their own company, ADI. And he was doing our Predator stuff and he-
Special effects, to be clear.
Right, our practical special effects from suit building to prop making when it came to Predator things. So he had a bit of the bible, he had the aesthetic and what the physical object language stuff was. When we made Killer of Killers, an animated film where nothing needed to be built physically in the real world, I still had him on as our advisor and designer, and all the Predator designs were originated through his shop. The fun of that was that he's no longer hampered by needing to build something that someone could be inside, so he got to really let loose on the designs and make them the Alien creatures they want to be rather than the Alien creatures that they only can be, because of limitations.
So yeah, Alec has really been a touchstone. And then from there, starting with Alec to language that is a big part of Badlands and a little part of Killer of Killers, from the visual runic Yautja language that we see to the spoken word, we found someone to develop a language because what's been in the Predator movies since then has just been, "This is what looks cool at the time." None of it actually made any coherent sense, and I just wanted to start to make it sense.
Got it. So you are helping essentially to create the lore.
Yeah, but I still go to what's there. I go to the comics I've read and what's on the extended universe and fansites and people that have kind of collected things and named things over the years and see what stuck and what felt cool to me to make sure I'm honoring, to some degree, what people have been attracted to. But also have tried very hard to not get seduced by delving too deeply into prioritizing something that our mutual friend Jeff Cannata always says that always I've always agreed with: prioritizing lore over story. There's a big difference between lore and story and as evident of Killer of Killers, certainly we now know more about those creatures that that race, the Yautja, than we ever have before, but it's all really in service of a really adrenalized thrill ride and not meant to be overly presumptive of people's interests and the inner workings of the culture and political system of an Alien race.
Since you mentioned the look of the Predators, we see the Predators during four different time periods during the movie and they look different in each of the time periods. I'm curious, what were some of the changes or notable things you wanted to be reflected in how the Predators appeared as the movie went on?
I've always been a little bit bugged when you go to Kashyyyk, the Wookiee planet, and they all look at exactly the same, except some of them have a little bit of a gray fur and some of them more brown.
Why does that bother you?
Because I don't believe that's how planets work, and that's certainly not how our planet works.
You think there'd be a vast diversity of appearances, right?
Yeah, we all look very different. And for Predators, it had traditionally been like the mandibles look a little different and people dig in and dissect, and it's like it's barely different. I obviously wanted to continue to embrace that concept, but also I just wanted to make sure the aesthetic of them match the spirit of the time and the feeling of the time. Certainly for the Vikings, I knew that because it was the earliest that we've explored, so wanted to make sure that his technology was of course still incredibly advanced and far superior to anything that Earth has seen, but still feel like prior to now what we've seen in Prey. Its size and scale was a big deal. I really wanted to make sure it was the largest that we've had to contend with. And its technology was down to a single piece of technology as opposed to-
Yeah, the sonic boom weapon.
Yeah, as opposed to what would be very uninteresting as it just has a sort of [Dan gestures to make an imaginary laser on his shoulder], pew pew pew, picks off everyone one by one, and that's the end of that. The Predator in the sword chapter, just wanting to embrace that what's always been apparent for the Predators, that there is a similarity to a ninja. There's a similarity to someone with gadgets, that moves through stealthily using trickery. And so allowing that be a sort of spy-for-a-spy, a stealth-for-stealth situation. There was a drawing that Alec had with a Predator that had no dreads that started just from him being around the makings of Predators. And he's seeing them so often before they implant the dreads and how cool they look. And it felt like our pilot, who—
From the third storyline, right?
For the third storyline, our pilot Predator who the dreads have always been known to be more than just hair follicle, but also a sensory organ. And if you're in the ship, you don't need that same kind of thing. And perhaps he's kind of plugging into the ship in some regard. And so this called eye patch thing that felt connected to the way he'd be functioning in the spaceship. So yeah, it came from what we wanted to be in the story and what we wanted the feel to be. But also from seeing designs that have been around the office, so to speak, and realizing, "Oh, my God," being inspired by that and plugging them into what our needs were narratively.
From this point forward, we're going to SPOIL Predator: Killer of Killers. I am curious how you thought about balancing exposition or character development with action. What was your approach in thinking? Were you ever worried that there wasn't enough explanation of what was going on with these characters?
Oh, the whole thing of making a movie is worrying where it's too much or too little constantly. The one thing I just wanted to ensure is that, once again, we'd established our characters in conflict prior to a Predator arriving, which was tricky with our time limitations, having to tell a 20-minute story. And also, that the real overwhelming task of the movie, that was the reason for making it, was realizing that not all anthologies are The Twilight Zone. There's also Pulp Fiction. And so I wanted to, insanely, make sure that each story felt like a full meal, felt conclusive, but that also, there's still narrative to be completed in the final act of the movie when they all come together.
There definitely was a challenge in trying to figure out how can we establish enough to care in the opening minutes before a Predator shows up and still do action scenes. Each one of them has an action scene before a Predator shows up, and then also have time to deliver the promise of the premise of Predator showing up. And then wanting there to be story explored in that final act, if all characters had completely arced before, then there'd be nothing left. And so, yeah, that was the big challenge. We had a great screenwriter in Michio Rutare in helping us get there.
Let's talk about some of the specific action sequences in the film. I'm just going to name the character and I want you to just tell me one moment from that character story action-wise that you're particularly proud of and how you came up with it or something interesting about developing that moment. So let's just start with Viking Warrior Ursa. What's one moment from Ursa's storyline that you were particularly proud of? And tell us a little bit about what into it.
It's hard to not say the oner. That was an incredible technical challenge and kind of came from the technical challenge, as you've heard me say so many times when we talked about this kind of thing, we knew we needed to do a raid, her attack and on Zoran's camp, but we didn't really have the budget and affordability to build that asset if we were to really do a full fight in the encampment. It couldn't be lame. I really wanted to show what Ursa was capable of. Also, she's so single-minded that it felt like there's something to her just barreling towards her goal, barreling towards that thing, and just felt like a really, if we treat it like the running back or, I don't even know, I'm not equipped in that stuff, the guy who catches the ball from a kickoff and has to run it back. Is that the running back? Receiver?
You're asking the wrong guy. Yeah, the receiver.
Oh, my God, we're two losers.
Yes.
Look at us.
This is two film nerds here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She starts at one end of the field and it has to charge all the way forward, and the camera will always be at her back. So we're in a limited perspective. We aren't seeing every facet of that set, but you don't care. You feel like this is exactly how it's supposed to be. And the grace note at the end of her jamming her shield in before those doors close and grabbing that guy. I just love figuring out all the pieces that set piece needed. And so many cool people came up with incredible choreography there and was really exciting to also just showcase an unusual weapon in ways that Marvel could not, but we could. And yeah, so that's my favorite bit of choreography from the Viking chapter.
Very cool. I'm just going to share with you my favorite, just so you know.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I made a crazy action movie, we're both action fans, I want to know what you thought for sure.
My favorite part was when she actually kills the Predator and how she does it, which is I think they're underwater and they're struggling. The whole underwater sequence is incredible. And then she sees that he's about to fire off the weapon. She gets the shield in front of it. And I think she realizes that she can position him so that he's going to be impaled by the spikes behind him. The whole time when I'm watching this, I'm wondering how are these Predators going to get killed, because they're really freaking hard to kill, right? And that's the whole point of all these movies, is they're extremely hard to kill. To figure out what are they going to do to actually kill these things? When I realized, "Oh, it's going to be the moment when he flies backward into the thing." Incredible. I thought that was perfect.
Originally there was when it was a longer tale, there was a scene between her and her father, and they were talking about anchoring down somewhere, and then her later talking about what then became, "There's a monster inside of me," which I love, and I'm glad we ended up there, but originally it was like, "There's an anchor around my heart that's keeping me in this place that I'm trying to move on from. That's why I need revenge." And so that was all trying to create meaning out of the end kill, and that's why anger even was there to begin with. And we lost that, but we ended up still with the cool kill.
Kenji and Kiyoshi in the Japanese 1609 storyline.
I should mention, this is the one chapter where we went to get some help from a stunt coordinator that I worked with on Prey, a guy named Jeremy Marinus, who works with 87eleven. I believe he did Ballerina as well. He's worked on a bunch of the John Wick movies. Jeremy and some of his team I wanted to bring on to ensure we were authentic in as many areas as we could. And so all of the holes and the way that they use the swords and the weapons of choice. And a lot of those fights, there's incredibly fun bits of authenticity if someone has an eye for that stuff.
But also in really wanting to rise the occasion and make sure that we were doing justice to these two well noted and well regarded and rendered martial art forms. So there's so much that I love. I love the silent fight in the Bell Tower. I would say the moment that I'm the most proud of, if only because it was such a challenge to figure out, was taking a note from your book the way that they killed the Predator. There were a lot of ideas that were “That's not meaningful, but that's a cool thing to do.”
And you needed it to be both cool and meaningful.
Yeah. And it suddenly occurred to me that if what we're doing is saying that it's about them coming together, that defeating it, can we build that to be suspenseful? Can we build that end move, just letting that be the thing. And we built something that is actually, spatially, there's a part of it that doesn't make the most sense. I hate to even say this when we're not years after the release to highlight this, but it's so what you want to see and so operatic and musical that it doesn't matter. It just feels cathartic for it to happen the way that it happens. And the filmmaking of it, the way it's cut and the way it's scored and all that stuff, what make you not even think too much about some of the spatial issues with it. Unless, maybe you're about to say you are the viewer that would point out.
Yeah, I did not perceive any of that at all. What were people's concerns with it? I don't understand.
Well, there's a lot of physical logistics to, do they know the Predators is alive? Where is he standing? Where is it, and how is it, and how are they?
Right, because essentially they both attack him while he's invisible, right?
Yes.
And so it's like, how would they know he's invisible? How would they know where he's-
It's smashed against a tree. We didn't always he's have it leave a green mark in the tree, and and oh, the leaf, and that was an idea that helped seal it, but technically there's still a part that doesn't make sense and that to do what they do, one has to go on either side of it, but it's also right by a tree. So how can someone go on the other side with the tree?
Didn't even think about that. Didn't think about that.
Some people think more logically in the team, but movies are dreams. They're not all physical space and logic and you have to let it feel. And as much as I want to believe in myself, you feel the devil, I was like, "Oh, my God, what if it's true? What if it doesn't work?" But it really does feel incredibly gratifying when that moment happens. That's the highlight of that chapter for me. And there's plenty of awesome in that chapter. What is your favorite?
I mean, two very small moments. One is, like you said, the fight in the bell tower, when he catches the guy's head. He stops the guy's head from hitting the [bell], and that was very nice. And then one of the guys rings the bell and he's like, "Okay, F it. I don't care about this anymore." That was very funny. And then when the leaf falls on the Predator, I was just like, "That's so badass.” What you had to do in the movie is really difficult because you not only need to tell three Predator stories, technically four Predator stories of four different time periods. But you need have each set of characters in these time periods understand what the Predator is. Now, in a modern day, people see an invisible guy. They're like, "Oh, yeah, I saw that on TikTok," or whatever. But if you're from 892...
"I saw that on TikTok"?
You know, somebody has an invisible cloak, whatever. I see stuff that would make our ancestors lose their mind, Dan. But somebody from 841 A.D. needs to see the Predator and understand what it is and figure out how to fight it. And you need to do that every single time. So you used different ways of revealing that to people and the leaf falling down and touching the Predator's body, I thought was-
Not only that, you're reminding me of the other challenges that it not be a chore for the audience to be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've seen this. I don't want to have to watch this guy realize a thing that I already know. Oh, you're going to discover that it's cold, that it sees heat, and cover yourself with mud. I've seen it. I know all these beats."
You need the audience to be delighted by the discovery, right?
But also, there's a lot of people that have never seen a Predator movie before, and we have to make sure that it makes complete sense even to those people. It is incredibly daunting. Yeah.
Tall order. Tall order. All right. Last one, 1942. World War II.
Oh, my gosh. My favorite action beat of a chapter filled with just awesome. I mean, I would say that the piece that's in the trailer of going through the guy and ripping him out of his plane, of personal interest to you and I, the scream of that guy that I'd love to become the new Wilhelm. It was done by a mutual friend, Alex Albrecht, and it's an iconic scream. It's insane his scream. But my true personal bit. Yeah, the first image that we had concept art rendered for before we had even written the thing was a plane going through the city, like trench running through Casablanca. And it's something that I would never decide to do in live action. I think it would be incredibly silly in live action, but I was delighted to be able to do something that looked so felt so cool.
I've said this a couple of times, but I think you'll agree, that seeing Akira was a really pivotal moment of my childhood. And there's, of course, that moment the bike chase in the beginning when he jumps off of the rim on the tire to kick the... like I think Hard Target kind of has a moment like that. It's really goofy in live action, but in Akira, it's so cool. And so there was a huge part of me that wanted to not restrict myself like I would in live action and find new fun in the animated medium. But I love when it goes really quiet after Vandy's death and he's falling to catch back up to the Predator. And the end, the way it all builds in the end musically always really stirs me when I watch it. But what was your favorite bit?
What's great about the movie, in my opinion, is on multiple occasions, just when you think, "Oh, this is the end," something else happens. It makes you feel like, "Oh, wow, this is actually just the journey to the end." And that kind of happened in that portion where he kind of flies into all the explosions going off, I'm like, "Oh, this is how he's going to get the Predator." But no, you still managed to give him a little triumphant moment at the end there.
Yeah.
Final question, Dan. Obviously, the big final moment in this movie is inspired, according to your Letterboxd List, by Raiders of the Lost Ark, where you see this whole just vats and vats of people who they have collected over the years and placed in suspended animation. And it is revealed that one of them is Naru from Prey, the protagonist of Prey. Now, I feel very torn about this.
Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Because on the one hand, it's exciting that, "Oh, it's the Dan Trachtenberg Predator Universe. We might get to see Naru again." The implication is we might see Nauru again in some format, either in an animated film or a comic book or whatever, another Prey II, whatever it is. So that's all very exciting. On the other side of that, it's like, "Man, it kind of is a bummer that after everything that Naru went through, the implication that she got scooped up and she's in this frozen cryopod somewhere." And I guess I'm curious because the implication's like, all this stuff happened after the end of Prey and it didn't end well for Naru. So do you feel like, in any way, the ending of this movie kind of cancels out the fairly triumphal ending of Prey?
I hear you in you really poked a wound there because-
Good.
... I think a lot of people our age were deeply disturbed. I was deeply disturbed watching the beginning of Karate Kid Part II, to find that Ali has dumped him for a quarterback. I mean, it was like nothing was more depressing than hearing that. So I offer my condolences. I think there's a lot that can happen to a character before they even end up in that.
So you're saying Naru has many fun adventures?
I mean, what we do not have in the movie is a time period listed as where the ending takes place. And I've definitely seen people assuming a time that is not the case. I think really what a promises is for me, you're saying, "Oh, what a sad outcome that she gets taken." But I think it's a promise of more adventure. And the other thing I would take the opportunity to give you a little exclusive, 'cause I posted a Letterboxd list of movies that inspired Killer of Killers. On that list, I put Best in Show and I didn't want to, it's annoying because it's a big reference for me, but I did not want to have to explain it because to do so would just spoil the movie.
The thing I loved about Best in Show is it's a sports movie, it's a competition movie. By the end, it becomes that genre, that format. And usually in a sports movie, you've got your team or your character and you are rooting for them. But when you're watching the movie, when you're laughing with characters, you bond to them in a very potent way. Then all of a sudden, the end of Best of Show suddenly you're like, "Wait, someone's got to win this thing." And now I'm like, "I've never cared so much in a movie where I do not feel at all assured about the outcome." So many sports movies, you feel very assured about what the outcome, it's just how was it going to reach that outcome? Best in Show was like, "Oh, my God, I've never felt more tense."
I've always wanted to chase that in a non-comedic genre. And so part of the inspiration and the pulse of this movie was like, you're going to bond with all three of these characters and not know that at some point you are actually going to have to be rooting for, caring about are one of them going to kill the other? In Hunger Games, you have your leads, you have your main characters, and you're with them. This is sort of a potent idea of like, what if you bonded with all of the characters in the Hunger Games? What if you deal with all of them? And now they're forced to fight, and how does it make you feel?
Predator: Killer of Killers is streaming on Hulu.